Jun 7, 2014

June Update 2014

Update!As usual this is an update post to brief you all on site changes. EB-08 & EB-09 features the update. Click the read whole article link to see comments on everything.

Updated this time:

EB08 and 09 are really interesting releases that will surely shake up the game. Though they are not created equally. As per usual, I’m reviewing the actual product boxes; Champions of the Cosmos is an amazing box that sports 3 very playable RRR units and 2 new RR playables, with a third perfect guard (the coolest one yet!) and its remaining RRs are respectable throwbacks for things that we need in the newest decks if you haven’t already picked them up. Having more accessible means of getting Stern and Asura Kaiser were sorely needed. The new trigger arts for Nova Grappler are stupendous and almost make me want to run rainbow triggers. Almost. Everything released in that set is top-notch and brings a ton of power to Novas, putting them back in the Tier 1 game with not one but two decks. The release of the whole Blau archetype brings a soft tear to my eyes as Reals finally make a big break in Vanguard.

EB09 fares a bit less well. Notably, it has a third perfect guard for Kagero as well (though not a second archetype PG like Novas). Two out of three RRRs are notable, though you’ll see later why I only say “notable”. It’s Blast Bulk Dragon that really ruins the box if you pull one. Dragonic Overlord, Lawkeeper and Gaias are really piss-poor RRs for this set and the only usable RR is Critic though only if you run the Nouvelle deck. For a Kagero player that already has the Tier 1 deck that’s been around since Set 11, you have the option of completely ignoring this box.

Nova Grappler – There’s so much to discuss here. Galaxy Blaukluger is a beast of a deck now. Regular Stern was already sitting at the highest Tier 2 position possible and the new inclusion of Mars and Galaxy made the deck skyrocket to Tier 1 with massive win rates. It doesn’t consistently tie with Descendant or Revengers but very little does. It beats Granblue and Mazinger Z outright but loses its ass to Za Warudo (will discuss after this). It ties with the rest of that tier. Now that you know Galaxy’s matchup, it’s easy to see why it’s fairly strong. Galaxy was tested with and without the chain and with Stern and Mond variants but the one published did the best of all. Having the guaranteed early booster in Morgenrot and having the Stern midgame did the best for the deck.

Za Warudo is the Immortal Asura and Mond variant. While technically strictly better than the Galaxy variant, it is also more expensive but since both are Tier 1, fuck you, I’m listing both. It casts its mold from the Daikaiser decklist, almost card-for-card (literally, go look at them). As it has the same chances to win, a better success condition that works longer, and much much better fail conditions, Za Warudo unsurprisingly destroys the shit out of Daikaiser’s build. The two best builds were one with 4 Galaxies and one with 4 Asura base forms. The Galaxy version was the originally proposed build and did mostly the same as the other with some key differences: it was tying with Chaos Breaker and losing hard to Descendant while tying or beating everything else. Using Asura Kaiser with Immortal in the deck unlocked Samurai power more often and gave the deck equal (!!!) standing with Descendant and beat the pants off of Chaos Breaker handily. With the best build of the deck, it always tied Revengers, beat: Granblue, Spikes, Mazinger Z, Chaos Breaker, Crazy Daimond, and barely scraped beating King Crimson (the new name of 255 Poise). It’s kind of insane because now we have a “Big 3″, where Revengers, Descendant, and Immortal all pile around each other at about 0.5 win probability each. The rest each beat/lose to other decks with trade offs.

KageroOne new build was added…but really only out of obligation. In fact, if you look at the stats of Nouvelle Vague’s contribution, she and her support actually make King Crimson worse overall. As it takes the deck down from decently competing in Tier 1 to the top of Tier 2. While it’s definitely the “Killer Queen” (hehe) of Tier 2, the Dragon’s Dream deck no longer competes when you make the changes to Crimson partly due to not having Conroe anymore and partly because you scale back the number of attackers and also get more boring units (even if you get Roman and Critic, which are admittedly good). Vague herself could barely beat completely vanilla decks when I controlled for vanillaness (Superior Riders + Vague vs any completely vanilla deck; Vague barely tops out), showing that the cost of Vague really didn’t outweigh the massive changes needed to make a deck with her work.

In fact, Kagero players can skip this update entirely as their deck is already, and still is, Tier 1. Not only that, adding her and Critic to a deck makes it more expensive than before! This deck is only listed out of pure obligation so I don’t have to answer a crapload of questions from readers who want to know where the omgNewKickassGrade4 deck is. Sorry to break it to you, but that card was pretty piss-poorly designed to wash out everything…making it “vague” (hehe). I was really pissed when I saw this card and assumed it would ruin the game. It’s more likely to ruin your deck and wallet than the game and that’s with fixing the grade ratio problem she creates. Read carefully: I am not adding Dragon’s Dream to the Tier 2 list. Despite being Tier 2, it’s completely useless to ruin King Crimson that way. So don’t ask.

Current Tier Standing

If you DO NOT KNOW the definition of each Tier according to this site, you NEED to read the March Update or the February Update to get yourself up to speed. You will not have any clue what I’m talking about and will make horribly wrong assumptions and then grill me on it unfairly. Just do us all a favor and read.

Tier 1

  • Narukami – Sword of Apocalypse (Descendant)
  • Shadow Paladin – Arthur’s Bane (Raging Form Revengers)
  • Nova Grappler – Za Warudo (Immortal-Mond)
  • Nova Grappler – Moody Blues (Stern-Galaxy)
  • Dimension Police – Crazy Daimond (Daikaiser)
  • Spike Brothers – Go to BED (Dragger-Emperor)
  • Granblue – Maxx Limp Bizkit (Lord Nightmist-CocR)
  • Kagero – King Crimson (Dauntless-End)
  • Link Joker – Star Platinum (Chaos-IZD)
  • Dimension Police – Mazinger Z (Daiyusha Critical)

In no particular order, anyway.

Tier 2

  • Aqua Force – Soft&Wet (Rush)
  • Aqua Force – Foo Fighters (Tetra-Drive)
  • Dark Irregulars – Dimension Distortion (Dantarian-Master)
  • Spike Brothers – Rush Blitz (Rush)
  • Tachikaze – Aztechno (Spino-Darkrex)
  • Great Nature – The Hand (Chat-LeoR)
  • Oracle Think Tank – Auspex of Thoth (CEO-Magus)
  • Nubatama – Black Sabbath (Kuji-Kabu)

Dropped

  • none

Again in no order. Handy-dandy color chart!

Purple stuff was dropped from a previous position
Blue stuff was new but didn’t change its clan’s position
Green stuff raised its clan position

Stuff you totally noticed: 255 Poise got changed to King Crimson while a bunch of other decks still do not have JoJo names. TWO new freaking Tier 1s from Nova Grappler instantly. Mazinger Z’s testing results came back from last update and I was totally right to list the deck on my blog as it was technically Tier 1, though about as low as Star Platinum (in other words: close to falling off). Nevertheless, it’s totally viable to play especially being a budget as hell Tier 1 deck. And just satisfying. Who doesn’t like smacking up your opponent with crits every turn?

The coolest thing ever about this release is that with the invention of Za Warudo, three top decks now exist that perfectly tie each other at 0.5 win ratios per deck. That’s astounding and none of those decks have a single deck in the game that can beat them at above 0.5. The rest of the decks in the game, they are equal to or better than. However, the definition of Tier 1 that I use allows everything else to stay grouped there since they still have a really good chance of winning. Just note that if you come asking me “what deck should I play?” and give me absolutely nothing to go on, I will say Apocalypse, Bane, or Warudo. Sword of Apocalypse is the cheapest and most consistent versus everything else. Bane of Arthur is the most expensive (once EB08 prices die down) but has midgame. ZaWarudo has a chance element but the most devastating gambits ever and good fail conditions. This almost means you can play these ridiculous decks in a team tournament!

Do not throw out your Genesis just because it dropped last update. After the next two EBs it gets a chance to make a comeback. Golds are dead now though and might not come back in BT14 though that’s just speculation.

Stipulations: Interestingly you still want to know some matchups despite the numbers being pretty solid. Decks have success conditions and fail conditions. What you want to do is assess both the chance and severity of the fail conditions when the successes are equal (or good enough for a win). In Tier 1 for example, all the successes give you wins so it’s pointless to even talk about how “omg good” Chaos Breaker is or Bad End is. What matters is what it can’t do and how often it can’t do it. Longevity describes the deck’s persistence of its success condition as well, like giving multiple turns of benefit. Let’s go over some:

  • King Crimson – Failure: DDD isn’t ridden. Amazing failure condition because it means The End is ridden and you get a midgame, even if you get a “weaker” late game which isn’t even necessarily true. Chance: Medium. Same as any Unit-over-Break (specific unit ridden over a break ride, henceforth: UOB) though a DDD over DDD still kinda works and sets you up for longevity if you don’t win. Since the weakness of the deck is still a strength, it appears to be very difficult to knock off the Tier 1 list, even with a slightly less effectual end condition than some. Longevity: It’s a one-trick pony for DDD or End. You’re not going off with these more than once usually and most Break Ride decks are this way. A longer living deck tends to do better on all other equal terms.
  • Sword of Apocalypse – Failure: EDD isn’t ridden before LB4. You’re pretty much screwed. Chance: Low. Almost never happens in any game since you have the superior ride, 4 copies of it, and all the way until LB4 to get it which is > 95% chance in a given game in total. Making EDD one of the most disgustingly good decks in the game and very consistent. Longevity: 2 turns usually, so pretty good. This just keeps going until the opponent eats Apocalypse twice or dies.
  • Maxx Limp Bizkit – Failure: Lord Nightmist not ridden. It’s okay, Cocytus-R is decent and still allows you to get around 1/2–1/3 of what you wanted without it. Chance: Medium. UOB but not necessary. Technically you can also not setup any draw units to revive but that’s unlikely since you start with one and have mills out the ass. Longevity: 3+ turns. Generally 3 turns though since it can deck you out. These can be +0 or +1–2 turns which is pretty devastating guard creep in late game. This is a highly enduring and long-lasting deck.
  • Star Platinum – Failure: IZD not ridden first. You might be just fine, though your win condition will switch to wheedling the opponent down with guard quality and frustration for them. Chance: Medium. UOB. Longevity: Generally the 1 turn sets you up for a long time but CBD can keep going another 1 turn, making its effective longevity closer to 2 turns.
  • Go to BED – Failure: No Dragger break ride. You’re pretty much screwed unless the opponent failed too. There’s something to be said for a strong fail condition that competes with Kagero and Granblue’s really well and rips apart most of the others. Chance: Medium, UOB. Dragger-Dragger not recommended but not impossible to win with either. Longevity: 1 turn. They have to die or you’re dead.
  • Arthur’s Bane – Failure: No Dorint/BDR combo midgame. You’re almost completely unaffected since Tartu gives advantage anyway, Trumpeter gives advantage, and Raging Form goes DDD on someone’s ass. Your fail condition is better than most Tier 1 win conditions. Chance: Low. How can it fail when you have so much searchability? Essentially it’s like you get hand screwed just like anyone can be but then you’d also have to never get 2 Forms all game. Longevity: 4+ Turns. Generally these effects build up over midgame and splash out in late game, thus making it a very enduring deck.
  • Crazy Daimond – Failure: Daikaiser isn’t ridden first. Eh? You have Dark Daiyusha which can do some hurt in late game but your fail condition generally is just on par with other fail conditions. Chance: Medium. Even with the chance to check a g3, you’ll still be doing things since they have to guard for the high chance of death. It’s the same as any UOB if you want the Daiyusha revenge-kill and lower if you just need Daikaiser for the shield break. Longevity: 1 turn, make it count! 2 if you can ride 2 Dais but that’s kinda obvious in every case.
  • Za Warudo – Failure: Immortal Asura is never ridden. There’s actually a pretty damn low chance of this just due to the fact that you have all game to get it but it can happen. It’s a rare instance of not relying on a break ride. But it does have a double failure: you need to ride Asura & use its skill within 1-2 turns if you don’t get Mond’s break ride. Chance: Low (due to Mond backup and Asura-Samurai back-backup). Longevity: 2 turns with Immortal, 1 turn with Immortal+Mond, 4 turns with Asura+Samurais.
  • Moody Blues – Failure: Both Galaxy ridden midgame and missing 1-2 Blaus by late game. Essentially you’d have to both miss Stern and miss the 2 rear guard Blau named attackers to screw this up. Chance: Very low. The chances of that, while incalculable due to variables can be estimated to be as low as shitting through your own nose one day. Your opponent has to deliberately target your attackers by late game when you get Galaxy assuming you also missed Stern’s ride. Longevity: ALL GAME. Assuming you succeed with Stern, you get all midgame. Assuming you also succeed with Galaxy, his pressure is 2 turns of late game. So basically you have all-game coverage.
  • Mazinger Z – Failure: You both fail to ride Daiyusha midgame (or magically never get an activator + get your starter retired) and Reverse is outclassed in pressure by the opponent’s tank/pressure deck. Chance: Low. Let’s face it, who is going to either retire your starter (or you never get one of 12 activators) or you never get your ideal ride AND outpace your backup plan? It’s really not that likely. Longevity: Mid-Late game so about 4+ turns as usual. You get Dark for 2 turns and Daiyusha for 3+.

Well I hope you all enjoyed this very time-consuming and crazy changing update of EB08/9.

100 Comments

  • alphafive says:

    There’s already one issue with 6 Crit, and that’s breakriding Vague over Dauntless when your opponent is at 4 damage. Your opponent has a good shot at surviving by taking the first hit and PG’ing the second because the odds of twin driving into at least 1 Crit with a 6/6/4 lineup is only about ~23%.

  • Dark5ide says:

    Love people going nuts because the site’s not singing praises of Novelle. Something most people need to consider is that the reason the Silent Tom ability was powerful on him, and not so much on Vague are: 1. The meta now is different from the meta then. 2. The clan allows for crits and such to be set up so as to maximize the potential of Tom (CEO, trigger loops) and 3. By having it on a rear guard, your opponent has to make a choice of “Do I PG this huge guy and hope they don’t hit a trigger and put it on Tom, or do I save it for him and hope they don’t get a trigger regardless?” It forced them into making bad decisions each time.

    The trigger effect, while interesting, I think in the long run doesn’t matter terribly much. I’d rather have a unit it that will draw me more cards or produce more triggers than denying a heal or a card.

    And for those who are basing their arguments on the result of tournaments, realize that Vanguard has one of the worst tournament structures I’ve seen. Sparse qualifiers/official tournaments, run by judges with little to no qualifications and very little transparency on how they are picked or if there are levels of judging outside “floor” and “Head” judge. Tournaments, where they are best of 1, constant reports of corruption, unchecked cheating (Including at Worlds(!)). Not to mention the meta is different internationally for EVERY CCG. In Magic you’ll see some quirky lists in Japanese qualifiers than one stateside. Which make me laugh, in the sense that you’ll netdeck from a meta different from yours, with little to no information as to why they built that way, as opposed to people here who you can communicate to you directly why they built that way.

    Also, every professional player/team tests CONSTANTLY to the point of renting beach houses to test tons of decks, including random ones that pop up or are rumored to see if they hold up, because just saying “OH WELL, THIS TOPPED A BUNCH, MUST BE GOOD!” is dumb as hell, if only because if someone picks up on a deck that slams it, and you chose not to test, you are setting yourself up.

    And believe me, I would have liked Vague to be good as the hype was (Note, no one is saying it’s trash either!). It’s an interesting card that seems fun to play with. But in the end, it just isn’t as hyped as it could be, especially in a format where Descendant is unrestricted.

    • Alice Alice says:

      And you know, by the time Vague is out it’s late game and they have to PG anyway. Tom is a rear-guard so it actually matters.

  • bucky500 says:

    I’m fairly new to the game and this site has been an incredible resource (and money/time saver) for determining what decks will suit me.

    I’m very pleased that your update and revised clan analysis are up with new EBs’ release, this is fascinating stuff and reading the results of deck testing is across the board compelling to me.

    I also enjoy the comments sections and the arguments there. . .V-Mundi seems very confident in its evidence-based claims and it’s admirable that the time is taken to respond to those who attack your findings with invitations to show otherwise rather than petty mocking/rudeness/etc.

    Just wanted to say thank you for publishing your hard work; your team has my appreciation as well as my attention. I look forward to future findings, now back to trying to penetrate the ‘Advance’ articles!

  • Allen says:

    Can you do a post about Legion in general?

  • javmaster says:

    I know I will be told to wait, and I’m sure Alice has other IRL stuff to worry about, I’m still interested when the update will arrive. Just a note, that EB10, the Bermudas Extra Booster will be out in around 2 weeks (Aug 15), so hopefully when the update does arrive, it will also include analysis on the cards in the EB.

    • Alice Alice says:

      It’s just like…ugh I’m SO burned out. You don’t even know. Coordinating all this stuff IRL and doing hundreds of hours of testing between EVERY set is just so daunting. It gets really boring after a while, especially when Bushi won’t do anything new. Like Legion? This isn’t new. It’s just existing crap jumbled together differently, most of which is practically useless. The same shit works that always works: more damage, more cards, more consistency. Could we get something new? It would be nice not testing to find out which set of homogenized restanding vanguards and card draw decks are slightly better than the other homogenized restanding vanguards and card draw decks; which are way better than the lazily designed garbage left over.

      • smalltalk says:

        Don’t think bushiroad will change a lot in their game design. ( legion being announced up untill set 18 at the very least ) You tried once ( of that I know ) to persuade them to reconsider crossrides. That didn’t work out that well. Also so far set 14 and 15 and the bermuda extra booster are more relevant to test. 14 being already out, bermuda’s almost and not being updated so far and 15 coming out soon as well in about a month. 16 wont be out in a while so there will be enough time to test. What good is a site if you don’t hold relevance and are lagging behind on stuff that is already out? Also aren’t there other people out there helping you test stuff? Doing a lot of stuff by yourself can be a burden but you don’t have to do that. Nobody is forcing you, right? So if it is too much just quit or ask more help. Else grow some backbone.

      • Sigil no.3 says:

        Hey smalltalk, asking for help doesn’t always get you help, and even people who help can get busy at any time. No one is paid for this, but good thing people here actually try to give you solid results as soon as possible, rather than rush stuff for a deadline anyways. So chill off the hard decisions, and misjudgments since if you really need advice so soon, you can test it yourself, or ask to get a better picture of what will be a step in the right direction.

      • smalltalk says:

        Yes we can all stay positive and praise the good work. Thats fine. All very logical. Simply asking questions and stating some things that have been shared with me. But also acknowledge that less updates are being done with more people. Isnt that odd? I do test myself already for some time and this site also got my hooked on za wardo. I simply consider it less usefull for now since it laggs behind on my own resluts I get with testing. Forums are somewhat full of pissing contests and offtopic blabla so they also tend to help out less than optimal. There are some insightfull comments and tips sometimes but could be better.

      • Firagadam says:

        Ermagehd, teh alice is alive, how you doing buddy

      • Sigil no.3 says:

        Hm… I am guessing you are meaning that updates are taking longer to come out despite having more people to run tests on the site. Having few updates is normal since they tend to come out with a ton of information. I mean, I suppose that you can update whenever you get the data to support how a deck might fare, but maybe that comes down to preference of how info is unveiled in V-Mundi, but most likely, I just plain don’t understand how all the data is then analyzed, and then managed into an update. Also though having more people testing would seem to increase the speed at which data would be obtained, if all those people still only test when they can, it may only register to be a minimal change. (I don’t know how many people are testing though, so it still may be odd to see if it proves to be a larger amount of people.)

        I can agree that V-Mundi is not running at an optimal level of usefulness, but it is to be expected. To make sure that V-Mundi gets stuff out on time, to have a forum entirely focused only on making sure that tests get done, and to give it a more “professional” forum would require more incentive than, do it in your free time out of the love for the game, and get heckled by the community who thinks you are just doing this to sound smart. Your concerns are valid though, but unfortunately, to fully fix it, would require much more than what is present. Testing things for yourself is also personally the way to go, since you can essentially get what you need within your own time. Still, your criticisms does ring with truth, but the resolution might take more than what is present.

      • blaZofgold blaZofgold says:

        Uhh, Set 17 just released 7K boosters that allow Limit Break 4 abilities to work…anytime. I think that changes a LOT of things.

  • froliz says:

    And I totally love the argument of ‘random chance’. At large sample sizes (actually, very large in this case), ‘random chance’ only carries you so far. If you’re getting 90% heads out of 10000 coin flips, chances are the coin ain’t a fair coin, not ‘lol random chance’. If you’re looking at 1 tournament result and drawing conclusions, well not my fault you’re determining the chance of a coin flip through just 1 flip.

  • Thepokeman10000 says:

    Well then If you genuinely think your deck is better by all means please join the forums and test it there, because I hate to break it to you but saying something in V*Mundi means jack shit, and you’ll most likely get told to fuck off to whatever hole you crawled out of :) And your version WAS tested, hell I even did 35 games AFTER the update against ZA WARUDO and the results were 22-13 in favour of ZA WARUDO, which gave this a 37.5% win ratio which made it, guess what, NOT tier 1 but THE TOP of Tier 2.

  • brandymon says:

    I freely admit the decklist is a brainfart, as someone who posted it in the forum. I’ll explain the motivation behind it here in an attempt to justify the stupid, so take what you will from it.

    It became apparent through testing that the versions that aimed to ride Vague turn 3 (using Superior Rides and/or Cruel Dragon) and use its trigger negation and Tom skills as advantage engines didn’t work much better than a totally vanilla deck… The results are in the Testing Gauntlet section of the forum, available only to full members of the forum (and seriously, anyone is welcome to join the forum and be made a full member regardless of whether they agree with the “consensus” of the forum). As a result of this testing, I wondered if it was possible to instead build a deck around Nouvelleroman and Nouvellecritic, while still retaining the option of riding Nouvelle turn 4, or over Dauntless. This silly deck was the result, and it apparently tested ok which is news to me…

  • froliz says:

    Yeah… if deck construction to you guys means the rigid process of always running 12 crits, always run 4 copies ‘for consistency’ and things like that even when things are easily and pretty much guaranteed searchable (or when the consistency isn’t needed), you’re doing something wrong. I won’t bother with the forums anymore because I had a really horrible experience there before arguing how 13k bodies aren’t irrelevant like you guys make it to be. But I get jumped on by the entire forum going in circles and fed red herrings and all that, still insisting 13k bodies is irrelevant and doesn’t matter (and this occurred roughly 1 month ago).

    And then not too long ago (an hour or 2 actually) on the wiki, you guys suddenly changed your argument into 13k body does matter and makes a huge difference at times, just your position was it wasn’t healthy and now the consensus is to work around it, and it’s always been that way after DOTE era. Yeah, no. I’m not going to bother with the forums and try that again. You guys can continue to live in your isolated well and then come back 10 years later finding out what people outside of here said is true, and say it’s always been that way and make arguments based off bad base cases.

  • Anon says:

    You know you should have just tried out the decks before starting comment war. You won’t believe them even if they tried to reasonable argue with you, and you are still stuck with personal biases. Not only that, you are attacking people themselves, which will not help you win your arguments.

  • Tetsu Is Awesome says:

    No one changed their mind on the 13k body; people will still run a break ride over the base form if the base form doesn’t synergize with the crossride form and if the break ride has better gambits (like Nightmist + Cocytus R instead of Cocytus + Cocytus R, for example). This has been stated by a bunch of V-Mundi members like millions of times, which isn’t a “change of argument.” We brought up examples about Daiyusha. I don’t have much to add other than that since a lot of people has already mentioned like everything else to mention.

    I kinda figured that people were gonna go apeshit after the Kagero update and why am I not surprised…then again, like all the V-Mundi forum members (including Alice) thought Vague was broken when the card was first previewed, and then we tested the deck out. Like, millions of times.

  • Newbishop says:

    We all know your mind isn’t gonna change. Rather than assume we don’t know what we are doing, really just check for yourself. Use a Nouvelle deck, test it against any of the T1 decks like 50, not just like 10 times, against yourself or anyone you know is better or as skilled as you,or anyone here, THEN you can talk shit. For a community that gets ostricized as being biased and close minded as hell, we’ve actually been the only ones accepting challenges, while those who talk shit constantly either turn down said challenges, saying that there is nothing that they can do for us to accept being biased. That sounds like double standards there don’t you think? Nouvelle is just decent, and every fucking variation of the thing was TESTED here, and that one performed best.

  • froliz says:

    Right. You guys act like you are the only players that play test in the world lol. Good Job.

  • newbishop says:

    Are you fucking dense? It’s not whether or not you playtest. Playtest against these decks, THEN speak shit if they fail you asshole.

  • Tetsu Is Awesome says:

    Then where’s your results backing up your Nouvelle Vague decks? I mean, some of us are already starting on testing out the decklist at Pojo with 6 crits 6 draws 3 Dauntless 1 Cruel 4 Vagues just to see if your words are relevant. I think it would save us a lot of time if you showed us the decks you tested it against with the win-loss ratio.

  • froliz says:

    my results? I’ve only been playing and playing against the deck for like the past 6 months, literally. Yeah. And then calling people assholes when they disagree with you. this site and community, too gud and friendly. Such attitude, much arrogance, very ignorant, wow.

  • froliz says:

    just so you know, the deck has already been out for over 6 months, and is now something from the last season, and is one of the most played and competitive deck for that 6+ month period. Yeah, there’s actually a lot of people out there that had already played the deck for so long. It’s not rocket science really.

  • newbishop says:

    Umm, who are you to reprimand us? Really, you were the one to pretty much barge here to insult and spread hate dude. You either keep misinterpreting or ignoring what we say, mock us, then expect to be respected? And what opinion did we mention that merits you disagreeing? All we’ve given are the results of our testing, and it’s rude for you to even disagree without bothering to properly test against the decks HERE, since those are the ones you’re putting down. Don’t speak about manners and attitude when you’re asking for trouble with YOUR attitude in the first place.

  • froliz says:

    red herring is red herring. yum.

    anyways, I’ma stop arguing with you guys any longer here before someone tells me to stop posting here and go to the forums.

  • newbishop says:

    Goodbye, and by the way:
    Red Herring: logical fallacy made to distract from topic at hand.
    Topic at hand: Nouvelle being Tier 2, and the best build being the one here.
    Solution to problem: Ensure your Nouvelle deck is better than the decks here.
    Procedure to solution: Test your build out against the decks here. (Which is what I, and other people, are saying). And you for some reason keep evading it.

    Assuming your deck’s better than anything here without direct comparison just because it kept topping in itself is a fallacy too, just so you know. Check your definitions dude, because you’re the one burying yourself.

  • Alice Alice says:

    Think of V*Mundi like Smogon: talk shit, get hit. No really, if you walk in there like “VENOMOTH IS THE GREATEST POKEMON EVER WHY ARE YOU ALL SO STUPID PUTTING IT IN ANYTHING OTHER THAN UBER TIER” they’ll laugh at you and tell you to fuck yourself because they did the testing and know the math behind it.

  • Alice Alice says:

    I don’t think the chances of Froliz showing enough common decency and respect to other human beings is high enough for him to be promoted to Member, brandymon.

  • Alice Alice says:

    Every time this guy speaks I just laugh. The concepts he challenges are basic baby things we all figured out a year or more ago and he still doesn’t get. It’s like I can’t even take Froliz seriously enough to directly reply to him.

  • Alice Alice says:

    Anon, basically this. People don’t believe the results of my testing, aka the blog, nor the results of other member testing (the forum) and insist we don’t test (by the way, you can’t have that argument both ways). So the only thing to do is take the deck itself, take good testing methods you learn in Grade 9 Science, and apply them to Vanguard and see for yourself. I mean if you know we won’t listen to words without evidence, and you know you won’t bother testing it, why are you even here? V*Mundi obviously isn’t important to someone that lazy.

  • Alice Alice says:

    Tetsu, yeah I assumed Vague was broken and like I was pissed beyond words. “Fuck Bushiroad for breaking this game AGAIN!” I kept saying. We all kept saying. Hey remember how we also said “Pff Daikaiser sucks fucking ass, whatever. I’m not even motivated to test his sucky ass”? Hey remember when we said “Immortal Asura is gonna suck” for like 2 weeks until…Hey remember when we said …and it goes on and on and on and on. This is why words and impressions mean nothing and only testing matters.

  • Alice Alice says:

    Newbi, I’ve actually accepted testing challenges over cam before but people never really show… I just end up doing the testing with VMundi members instead.

  • Tetsu Is Awesome says:

    Wait, Venomoth isn’t OP? But how? I beat the Elite Four with it and always used my Lv99.5 Venomoth against Lv50-60 Pokemons! How is he not OP? Smogon Testing must be flawed.

  • blaZofgold blaZofgold says:

    Ah, I love Smogon <3 Used to be a part of their community but then keeping up was too taxing =.=; so I really appreciated all the hard work you guys do here.

  • Alice Alice says:

    The irony is that I used to be anti-Smogon for the same reasons people are anti-VMundi. Oh how I’ve apologized since then…

    All it really took was peeling back the veil of ignorance though. I mean you get these ideas and impressions about games and strategies so when someone disagrees, especially a whole site, a whole popular site, you tend to just lump it all up in the “Evil Corporation” sort of thing. If you actually go to their (or our) forums and talk with the people who do Tier testing and the math, you learn what’s really involved in all that crap and you start to understand that you, the opinionated chick, hasn’t considered half the things they did nor put in a quarter of the work.

  • smalltalk says:

    Yes we can all stay positive and praise the good work. Thats fine. All very logical. Simply asking questions and stating some things that have been shared with me. But also acknowledge that less updates are being done with more people. Isnt that odd? I do test myself already for some time and this site also got my hooked on za wardo. I simply consider it less usefull for now since it laggs behind on my own resluts I get with testing. Forums are somewhat full of pissing contests and offtopic blabla so they arent as helpfull as they could be.There are some insightfull comments and tips sometimes but could be better.

  • Sandman Slim Sandman Slim says:

    Talking about the results of your personal testing without sharing them is always suspect. Yes this site often lags behind current releases, largely because of how extensive the testing can be and it’s done for free in the spare time of people who have other priorities. This is not a large site generating revenue so it would be insane to devote the majority of anyone’s time to it.

    I agree that like community V-Mundie has it’s share of snobbish members but it’s often due to people doubting results without sharing any of their owns. And it’s not like most decks are expected to be tier 1 anyway, most will fit into tier 2 as they are practically copy/paste of existing decks with slight differences to account for clan specialties.

    There are so many articles on this site that cover most questions and provide tips on improving that when people demand insight from comments it often indicates they ignored the resources already offered on the site. The key to V-Mundi is understanding it’s all about optimization but you can play what ever you want. You don’t have to play with an optimized deck to have fun but don’t argue that whatever you play with is better based on confirmation bias.

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